IE7 Web Developers Nightmare
Internet Explorer 7 has kicked in at last on all MS Windows OS running PCs because of the fact M$ decided to force it's users to migrate through update. Well actually there isn't much wrong with this but IE7 was supposed to comply more with the standards what in fact isn't true.
IE7 is a night mare for most of the developers that try to comply with standards for crossbrowsing.
I recently needed to rewrite a web site so it works on firefox too... and the surprising element was that when testing the new and the old site on IE7 I found out that many things does not function as expected and "not function as expected" isn't the right word for it, it was more a question of working at all.
I found that submiting through JavaScript has some pretty uncool things which I don't actually blame IE but some functions did not work when not passing all the parameters and so on.
And the MOST killer thing was the DISability of IE to submit data through "input type img" which actually was the whole sites data... I don't actually blame the programmers that they did it so but IE for not keeping with standards again.
So actually with IE7 we come to a new era of "web developers nightmare" as it will require BAD and maybe not so BAD web sites to be rewritten and this with crush some of the small companies business.
And a final TIP from me! Try avoiding writing JavaScript without testing it 100% on all of the major used web browsers like FireFox, IE7, Opera and Safari.
Just to have a clue:
According to W3C the web browser market share of IE7 for the previous month is: 7.1%
and for IE6 is: 49.9%
So with a bit of analyzing the situation and the facts as well as doing some math we can say that IE7 will show a market share of about 60% according to W3C... which isn't the best picture for us the devs.
Have fun with you code and don't hate it :) hate the things that don't comply to the standards...
105 comments:
Man, Slashbots are such fucking whiners. Just go fix your site so that it works. Not a big deal.
Oh yeah, and BTW Slashbots:
"M$" is making a cool billion dollars a month in cash. So suck it.
-Bill Gates
Uhm, come again? What are you actually saying?
<input type="image"> doesn't submit the form when clicked on? Doesn't trigger the onsubmit event? Doesn't submit .x and .y for the image? Doesn't trigger the onclick event?
You're being very unclear here.
Any chance of a testcase, and/or example code?
^--- Age 14
Thinks Vista is "teh sw3ll" but will pirate it anyway since "M$" makes all that money.
I'm referring to the first and second comments, by the way.
Wow, get a grip man. Most of the stuff you said simply isn't true (IE 7 supports MORE of the standards than IE 6 did, IMG inputs DO work fine, etc.).
Since IE 7 has been in beta and has had migration documentation available for, oh, about 12 MONTHS, maybe you should stop whining and just fix your damn site?
I, for one, already switched all of my company's browsers to Firefox because most of our IE7 installs refused to authenticate even though all 213 Windows licenses are legitimate. Now i'm glad I did it. Ill be dammed if I launch rewrite projects because Microsoft does not stick to standards.
CIO
Yeah, at least some of this is true.
The web interfaces to several of our internal systems don't work with ie7. 650+ workstations here are being migrated to Firefox.
Remember the first three rules of writing: rewrite, rewrite, rewrite.
Sort of like makeing your writing compatable with english.
And remembering that the possessive form of 'it' doesn't have an apostrophe. I'm not even going to mention the rest of it.
I don't much appreciate misinformation, but it's particularly irritating when it's wrapped up in lazy grammar.
you can get around the image submit issues with some css - just set your input type="submit" to have a background image and jobs a good un - check out the search button (top RHS) on http://www.booktribes.com for an example
And of course.. those of us who use Firefox regularly (and test websites in it) may have noticed (at least I have), that the behaviour of IE7 is closer to FF than IE6 was, which is good.
Of course. There are several annoying bugs. Re-apply CSS classes (via the className property) doesn't always work properly unless you then reassign the innerHTML of the parent element to itself.. rather annoying!
OK cause some people offended me on slashdot for not testing this I will say it is not true!
I did test this and on 3 of the PC in our company (which is of 6 developers) we couldn't make this work so we did this to fix it by using submit on an a href with JS ... but the original usage of INPUT TYPE IMAGE was not submitting anything and the reason was unknown. So a coleague of mine searched the web and find out several posts about this at forums and find out that this was an IE7 issue so I did said this from ACTUAL EXPERIENCE! If it is not so now sorry! I tested this on my notebook as I speak and still no submitting.
Please don't judge me that easy that I am telling lies!
Oh and about the posting yes this is my account but a friend of mine did post this so please forgive me for giving him my account. I wanted to post an article about his blog but he did this for me, Thanks MAN!
are you going to continue writing IE accommodating hacks or will you just write standards compliant code and urge your IE users to switch to standard complaint browsers?
here is a campaign site that may be helpful:
http://www.nomoreiehacks.org/
a coleague of mine searched the web and find out several posts about this at forums and find out that this was an IE7 issue
Can we get the links to those forum posts?
Sure I will try to find it...
Why did I bother reading this? It's pure unprofessional rubbish filled with 'weasel words' that are nothing but speculation. Learn to write
"Internet Explorer 7 has kicked in at last on all MS Windows OS running PCs because of the fact M$ decided to force it's users to migrate through update."
thats complete and utter nonsense. the do not 'force' anything thru windows updates. you don't even have to install WGA if you dont want to.
blah
Gotta love MS.
We're bigger than everyone else so we'll do whatever we want.
How very American of you.
Go to hell, dumbass. You give real web devs a bad name.
His claims about image input types is outright false. I did not need to redo my form on bit and all buttons are image input types. Must have a syntax error elsewhere or a javascript onClick event gone bad.
I'm running IE6. Hence it isn't true that MSFT are forcing users to upgrade.
What they ARE doing is giving them plenty of encouragement, which is kinda understandable given that 284 / 365 days last year IE6 was open to attack and was rapidly becoming the single most powerful argument for people to give an open source product - FireFox - a chance.
Anyway, your argument would stand greater scrutiny if you actually published a code snippet / URL demonstrating the bug in the wild. It's hard to understand why you wouldn't.
Lastly... seriously dude - "! recently needed to rewrite a web site so it works on firefox too"?! Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
I have on 2 different machines Windows Server 2003 installed with IE7 as one of 3 browsers to check my work, and yes, like usual IE7 is still not 100% compliant to the standards, but that the <input type="image"> tag is not working isn't true, it works fine for my IE7.
In my experience so far, IE seems to have most of the same bugs as before. I particularly HATE its javascript and pseudo-DOM support. Rather than hacking my company's intranet (which i maintain as a side task to normal C++ development), I am just telling users that IE is no longer supported, and that they must install a proper web browser. It is simply cheaper to write code to standards that will be still be supported in a few years, than to add lots of hacks for the deficient implementation from Microsoft that will presumably eventually be superseded by something that works properly. Microsoft had their chance to fix IE problems in IE7, and they've blown it. As far as I'm concerned, IE7 is a lame duck browser which we can't support in a cost effective manner. We'll see what IE8 brings. On a positive note, IE7 IS a small half-step forward. It may still be a buggy mess, but it is a slightly less buggy mess than before.
"thats complete and utter nonsense. the do not 'force' anything thru windows updates. you don't even have to install WGA if you dont want to."
And that's a downright falsehood. It's _just about_ possible not to install either, but Microsoft sure as hell don't make it easy not to, and the average user would never work it out. Effectively, both certainly _are_ forced on users.
For the record, I'd advise anyone using Windows to get IE7, since, even though it is a bad piece of software, it is at least a little better than IE6. But I've no time for semi-criminal companies like Microsoft and still less for slavish lackeys and lickspittles who go around spreading disinformation on Microsoft's behalf.
This is the company in question:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20061209135113443
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html
It's enough to turn a decent person's stomach.
Microsoft adds incompatibilities with distinct purpose. Make no mistake about it, they do this to try to recapture market share. But it's a failed strategy and will cost them the browser market share... and eventually will cost them Windows market share.
How about you fix your grammar, spelling, and punctuation. You know, to meet the standards?
Without IECCSS enabled (personal toolbar) on my site (JAB Creations) you can compare IE6 and IE7's progress. The difference at my site is as clear as the difference between Opera and IE's rendering of Acid 2 though IE7 still leaves a few things to be desired (on my part). Also the GUI sucks and the original GUI should have been used in a manner to accommodate the new features. Lastly the new tab options don't work and I still get multiple windows opening. IE7 was rushed.
man I thought slashdot was supposed to be smart. now it sounds more and more like digg, go screw kevin rose all you want i don't care.
I believe a bigger problem is the inability of the IE7 to process "Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml" tagged content.
you really need to update this article to include the code that is in question. furthermore, not only are you extremely vague, but you've only mentioned one issue- having a problem with one of your forms is far from enough evidence to accuse microsoft of releasing a buggy browser.
im not an ie7 fan, but every site ive done works just fine in ie7- forms included. surprisingly, even all my css stuff comes across fine (which by the way im using for styling AND layout)
slashdot should never have linked to this artice... poorly done. it's almost as bad as cnn showing clips from youtube.
Regardless of what the slashdot folks says, this article is pretty shitty and untrue. IE7 is not that bad, definitely not. It's not great, but it's much better then the previous versions.
Could the anonymous commenter please donate 15000 Euro so I can rewrite again a big webapplication because IE7 incompatibility. The client doesn't want to pay for it. So do you pay me for fixing M$ mess?
Uh, our company runs all our internal and external apps in asp.net, and we do write for compatibility with all browsers.
For the record, we do have some forms that use image buttons and they work fine in all browsers.
The only issue we have ever had that was unsolvable was getting AJAX to work with some recent Safari versions.
crappy article.. this is misleading. who said <input type=image doesn't submit???
How did this crap ever make it onto Slahdot in the first place???
Your article seems less about developer specific issues and more towards a personal hatred bias. Perhaps in the future, you will post about subjects you are better informed about.
Did you folks ever think for one moment that this fellow may not know English as a first language? How rude can you possibly be? Respect people's rights to speak about what they wish. If you don't like it, stop reading and go somewhere else with your pious lamer-esque wanna be know-it-all-about-the-web asses. Grow up and go code, and stop browbeating others for blogging their views...man what a bunch of tards...OH! IE sucks big sloppy donkey balls dipped in butter!
IE7 works just fine, and much better then IE6. Fix your site and stop whining.
Ever cunsiderd taken a speling coarse?
U mite heave two stopp bloggingen four a few daze butt than poeple can rid ur postes.
This article is total bullshit. IE7 only created problems if you're a fucking moron and couldn't code a proper site to begin with.
Not to mention the months and months of IE7 Beta time when you could've fixed your fuckups early.
Your website has 799 errors http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fit-gears.blogspot.com%2F2007%2F01%2Fie7-nightmare-for-web-developers.html
fix them before you complain
Slashdot'ers are a bottom-of-the-barrel bunch, 99% of them at least. Ignore their disrepectful posts, they don't know any better.
And, allow me to clarify that it is the value= attribute that does not get submitted. All other browsers given an input type=image name=button value=something will submit "button=something" and button.x= and button.y= for the mouse coordinates (for server-side image maps). IE7 will only submit button.x and button.y, completely dropping the value on the input field.
Hurray for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt! Behold, zealotry and anti-microsoft sentiment in all it's glory!
Surely the fact that your image buttons are not working has something to do with your syntax rather than an ie7 issue. We have just recently done a new site that is ie7 compliant with image buttons everywhere, works fine. I would suggest that one of the following is true:
1:You are trying an "enter key" submit, which ie can have problems with. If this is the case, make a hidden field with the same value as your image button, so the correct value is submitted.
2. Your code syntax is wrong, or you have not given your image field a value at all.
I would suggest testing thoroughly before complaining about a browsers incompatibility.
Check out the statistics at http://www.boingboing.net/stats/#browsers
MS is loosing the browser market slowly. When I visited Boingboings statics just a year ago, IE was still leading with over 80 %....Look what happened.
Advice: Don't change your web site, let MS fix their browser!
I want to actually thank those people that didn't actually write comments to hate my writing but to think about the case and all this stuff here and on slashdot so THANK YOU!
All others please if you find this to be bothering you and so on... everything that is negative please I will ask you never to read it again... it is so simple.
Cheers!
As an Opera user, this is great!!! Now there's a way to get back at all those MS sites that say you must use IE6+ to access the site. I will code my site to say you must use FireFox or Opera to access the site. Oh, the joy of it all!
When I'm coding something (which is rarely), I depend on good old Opera to render it properly. "If it works on Opera, then it's valid, and anything else (that renders it improperly) is bulls**t" is my philosophy. I'm not big on JavaScript, so I don't know exactly what works where, but I do know that IE7 brought in its own share of incompatibilities
Wait a darn minute.
Did IE6 support this? THEN WHAT IS THE COMPANY LOSING? IT WAS NEVER SUPPORTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Do you have common sense? Web developers code for the BROWSERS, not the other way around. IE7 isn't THAT bad people, if anything IE7 has opened up new avenues for corporations to make more and make BILLIONS of off. Go back to school, man.
"Check out the statistics at http://www.boingboing.net/stats/#browsers"
BoingBoing is a hipster site. That was a red herring. Nice.
Thank you all for proving something I've been saying for a year now: blogging will kill the Internet as a useful tool of research, probably this year if something cataclysmic doesn't happen.
Where's the Turing test for whether or not a blog poster just made up everything he or she is touting as fact? Does anyone even care anymore, or are we all too enamored by listening to ourselves talk to bother?
Yeah, so now after running across this so-called information tying to figure out what the implications of IE7 on my company are, I've read that IE7 sucks and we shouldn't upgrade. Oh, and that IE7 is better than IE6 and we SHOULD upgrade. And that I'll be forced to upgrade anyway. And that I won't.
The net effect is that I've now wasted 20 minutes, not gained any new information, and still have to go find out for myself.
I speak to all bloggers everywhere: just shut up for a second and let me think, will you?
they won't...
ie7 understands css like firefox and almost every little browser its so much better than s***ing ie6 and below so don't whine it was a bid step for microsoft
If you're going to spew nonsense on the web, it would help if you were something more than borderline literate.
Show this post to a friend who's got a college degree, and don't come back until you've learned how to write well in English.
IE7 is in fact closer to standards than IE6, but they just stopped halfway there. So now, with still many IE6 users (remember IE7 requires license that many pirated copies won't be able to get), others are IE7, and there is also Firefox. I have now to support the standard for Firefox, the non-standard for IE6, and half-way standard for IE7. I have also to keep looking for when IE7 moves closer to standard to update my site again. This is too much over head for developers who want to move on. We can't keep following browser changes. A big firm like Microsoft, who's motto was once "We set the standards" should really be close enough to the web standards by now.
So when something doesn't work in Firefox, it's the app developer's fault for not writing a FF compatible application.. when it doesn't work in IE, it's IE's fault. This just seems to be how the illogical world of nerd fanatics works.
I know one thing... Opera doesn't work with my blog system. For one, it always says I'm not logged in, even when I am and the cookie exists. And when I do get in, it doesn't display the admin panel correctly (but it works in FF and IE6/7.) But I don't go around posting that Opera released a buggy browser urging people not to use it. You know what I do? I use something else.
And I know Firefox is not supported by many applications that are used at my company. I really expect to hear people tell me that it's the app's fault, and not Firefox's fault.
Safari is probably the worst offender I can think of, though, it's the only browser that really screwed up my website. Generally speaking my web code looks practically identical in Firefox and IE7, except I'd almost venture that it looks somewhat better in IE7.
I don't know... dealing with different browsers is a reality of the web design world. It's just how it is. Complaining will get you absolutely no where, except for Slashdot.
IE7 is more compliant than was IE6, but they still have work to do. Firefox isn't totally compliant as Opera, but is my overall personal choice. BTW, I have had no issues with IE7 and IMG submit btns.
Thanks for the notes.
Please could you give us more details about the problems that you found ? For instance, how many code you must change, or how long , what are the critical problems and so on ...
Thanks Again
All other browsers given an input type=image name=button value=something will submit "button=something"
This only appears to be true when "All other browsers" = "Firefox". Opera 9 doesn't do this, and neither does IE 6, so I don't think this is the problem the original poster was talking about.
Well actually the problem is pretty limited (with the type image input field) to just not submitting correct the VALUE, actually not submitting the value of the input at all. So INPUT TYPE IMAGE shall not be used instead of a submit button.
The other thing is the disability of IE to work with functions in JS which are not complete (understand "not complete" as without all the parameters the function was design) like:
function openCenter(url, feat, w, h){
window.open(url, "_blank", "width=" + w + ",height=" + h + ",left=" + ((ScreenX / 2) - (w / 2)) + ",top=" + ((ScreenY / 2) - (h / 2) - 20) + "," + feat);
}
this function will not work without the second param - "_blank"
While this is not the best example for this I think you got the idea.
So your main problem (INPUT TYPE IMAGE not submitting the VALUE attribute) isn't an IE7-problem at all, but an IE-problem (including IE6).
The fact that window.open() takes a second "name" parameter is just something that is. You can't blame anyone for that inconvenience. If you don't want to pass anything, just pass an empty string ("") and you'll be fine, even in IE7.
Tsk, tsk for turning that into "IE7 Web Developers Nightmare".
As for the first comment "just fix your site so it works", my question is, "works with what?" It takes about 30 minutes of web development to figure out that browsers don't all work the same. So "fixing it so it works" often ends up in adding a bunch of hacks to make a perfectly standards compliant site work with IE7.
For you grammar Nazis... comment on the story, not his grammar. He's quite obviously not a native English speaker. I hope all of you who are so offended by his English can post in a second language with perfect grammar.
so standard code is here for something.
So an anonimous dude said: " Just go fix your site so that it works. Not a big deal. " But, is a real pain in the ass to do so, maybe with small apps is not a big deal, but i want to see this anonimous fixing the code in a big app with 390 html forms..
is not a big deal?
To the anonymous poster complaining about the use of English on the page - yes, the writing is terrible, but when posting about it, you could check your spelling! "makeing"? Do you mean making? If so, fix it. And rewrite, rewrite, rewrite means nothing if you don't take the time to edit what is written.
Your grammar is so horrible - I could hardly make it through the article :-(
It's about time everyone grew up on here. At least Yavor decided to do something constructive with his day and write about his experiences with the new Microsoft browser to give you people something to read and pass some time.
I found the article useful and managed to read his English well enough. I'm English and English is my first language. I'm degree educated, but I still make mistakes when writing.
I'm guessing here that Yanor does not speak English as his first language so therefore I think his article is very good. I couldn't write an article like this in say German, French, Spanish or Portuguese.
Instead of attacking Yanor on every fine detail, such as his English writing skills maybe you should think about the problems he's trying to put across. I've seen many bugs appear on websites since I installed IE7 and at my company we have internal systems which have been obliterated by the introduction of IE7. So much so that we've actually had to force everyone back onto IE6 as company policy.
Thank you for spending the time to write your article Yanor.
Stuart.
Sorry Yavor, I just realised I started calling you Yanor halfway through!
Thank you for writing your article Yavor!
Stuart
Thanks for your comment mate!
I am actually bulgarian.
I have learned English and German and yes I can't really write in those languages but I can say I speak very well (so every single american or german I met did understand me).
Thanks for the support!
-------
About the IE7 problem well I looked at some history of my fellow developers and I found out that they use a lot of input type image for submitting different thing and yes they seem not to work any more.
So using this for a shopping cart for example isn't a good idea.
Get the facts on Firefox:
http://www.FirefoxMyths.com
I moved one of my sites to XHTML 1.1 served with the MIME type of "application/xhtml+xml". Rather than have IE users get the download dialog box, I put up a message explaining that they they should switch to Firefox.
I'm doing this with a second, higher-traffic site soon. I think it's important to force people away from IE, plain and simple.
I cannot believe the negativity of many comments and attacking someone for having English as a second language is just plain ignorant.
Anyway, those who suggest MS IE7 is just a rewriting problem have missed the point, IE7 is not compatible with applications built on IE6. What does MS care about proprietory software which is based on IE6. Nothing at all! I hav spnet years distributing CDs with compiled documents on them based on IE6. None of these CDs will now open in IE7 rendering them all obsolete. How does rewriting code solve that? Even when you use MS programs as the base for compiled documents you can't rely on them when they update.
IE7 has bugs (dua!) and its slow (dua again!!!)
Case in point (bugs):
I have a simple click to drag script that works just fine, until the user chooses a zoom other than 100% - then the image slides away from the mouse as it moves (if > 100%), or worse winds up under it (if < 100%). The problem does not happen in firefox when I zoom in and out. I haven't seen any place that explains why it happens; or, an official way to fix it. If anybody has advice i am all eyes.
RETARDS
IE 7 Does not submit the ACTUAL NAME of the element when the input type is 'image'!
How this can be considered sane behaviour I don't know.
Hello everyone, i am an asp.net programmer and i have been having problems with my web forms showing as should on ie7, my panels, textboxes, buttons and other forms all get jumbled up anytime i use ie7. please does anyone have a clue what i can do to correct this, its really frustrating
thanks for the nomoreiehacks link - solved some probs for me :)
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